CLIFFORD SCHORER: So one branch of the family were the owners of the Deed of Queens, New York, whenback when the Dutch were here. JUDITH RICHARDS: level of your interest. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah. [Affirmative.] And there was one large mud sculpture of a horse on the floor in the lobby at Best Products. I mean, you know, literally, and these are Constable, Claude Lorrain, you know, Millais, you know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, they do publish, especially catalogues for exhibition and shows and things like that, yeah. So if I want to pursue an area of collecting, it almost would be easier, as the curators do with their oaths, to collect outside of your area. Winslow Homer (February 24, 1836 - September 29, 1910) was an American landscape painter and illustrator, best known for his marine subjects. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I'm sure it was all an interest in history. You know, they were a very large shop. There are some institutions now that are speaking to me about things that they've borrowed that they really feel have become integral to their hang, and they want to keep them, and so that's a harder conversation, because, A, I may not be at the point where I want to sell the work, or, B, it may not make any sense from a tax standpoint, because I have given quite a bit, so I don't have much deductibility. JUDITH RICHARDS: Have there been anythis might be my last question. I packed it up in the overhead. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I was livingI was in Paris a lot. Where you. But I mean, as you became, CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no, no. But, you know, if Worcester receives a request from a private gallery, "Can we borrow your Strozzi painting?" I meansomething very strangebut nothing, no art. And I hadn't ever sold anything, so there was no selling going on. And he started me on collecting, actually. JUDITH RICHARDS: spent five dollars and you get a thousand stamps? So it was at that time, the seeds were planted to grow that institution visitation to 200,000, and that's happened. I tried to resign from the MFA, but they said it was no problem, and then Worcester actually asked me back ascreated an advisory role, advisory collections committee. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I mean, I don't keep much at home in London. So, you know, the finances of it drove the whole thing. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, no, no, I mean, I had particular moments in cities, but, yes. I wrote in English and I got a response in English, so. But, and I went right toI went right to the paintings. And then send it away andI'm trying to remember who did the book. JUDITH RICHARDS: Have youdo you imagine in the future acquiring another art business? You can admire; if you want to buy, you pay our price and you buy. I was actually shockedso the Worcester Art Museumyou know, I had been there and had been president for a couple of years and was actually shocked when they put up this board in the lobby, you know, of yourof the donors and their annual giving. So that's a hugeI mean, fiscally, they were on a path to 10 years and the money would be gone, back in the day, because you know, they were spending eight to nine percent plus capital, you know, plus cap ex, and you can't do that, you know; grandma's jewels only last so long. My grandfather was also lobbying hard, saying, "Go back to school." And, JUDITH RICHARDS: This little shop, was it going to be in New England, in London, CLIFFORD SCHORER: I had no idea. I went to Harvard, I said, "I've got to get the microfilm for the Medici Archive." JUDITH RICHARDS: I see. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no. I mean, the number of those issues I've dealt with in only five years is astonishing. So they wouldn't let me do thethey wouldn't let me look at the stacks. I don't want to do anything fancy." So I think that in order to have anything above 50 to under 500 survive and thrive to replace those dedicated 80 families of collectors who used to run around and buy those things, we need to create a sense of style that employs those things in a way that makes sense today, and that's what we try to do. You know, from the slaves of West Africa, to the sugar, to the rum, to the plates, to the spices. I'm projecting, you know, my sort of personal loves onto things that I'm helping the gallery find, and I'm not taking psychological possession. I collect Dutch still lifes; I collect," you know, fill in the blank. JUDITH RICHARDS: involve yourself in your conversation about this. [en] Vital records: Clifford J Schorer at +Archives + Follow. Were you in a kind of museum? $17. Prep the spring onion by cutting the white part, the middle part and the green part and keep them separately. However, the first thing I seriously collected as an adultso, age 17 comes, I start a company, and within six months I'm making money. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I mean, it helped to give the Worcester Art Museum the breathing space to get their spendI think this year their spend is down to 5.8 percent of endowment, which is the lowest I've ever seen, by an enormous amount. So there wasn't alwaysthere was this idea that they werethey must have been from one commission, because they were the same size, but there was not a full knowledge of what this commission was until at least the last decade, when all these pieces came together. JUDITH RICHARDS: Well, you still have conservation in the galleries. But, yeah, I mean. Their collection was just chock-a-block with things that had nothing to do with museum collections. [00:44:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: But generally speaking, those didn't show up at most of these estate sales. I mean, thatand also, you know, when you getwhen you go to the Old Master market, if you really want to focus on something, you really can't go to any tertiary auction houses. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, I know the famous expression about the collection you have and the collection you have in your mind. He told mehe shared that with me when I was 26, which I had not known. Again, knowing that that is a skill set that I will never possess, and that as close as I can ever get is to collect something. So, yes, I mean, you're talking about a razor-thin equation which is, you know, buy, consign, don't buy. The art questions were Anthony's bailiwick. Just one huge vertebrae specimen, yeah. [00:46:00]. I mean, the auction house generally won't give that information, because you're a client and they want, JUDITH RICHARDS: So it's up to you to reach out to the field. But the languages that I really learned and loved were French and the Slavic languages. You know, bags full of them. And this was an example of something that they made to commemorate the 100-year anniversary, probably around 1744 or so, of the VOC [United East India Company] making entres into China to sell the export goods. Renowned for his powerful paintings of American life and scenery, Winslow Homer (1836-1910) remains a consequential figure whose art continues to appeal to broad audiences. But you know, obviously, I thought it was really fun to be there at that moment, that particular moment. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, I mean, I love lending things, and I have a lot of things on loan, and I would like to do more of that. And so the National Gallery has our historic stock books and archive. Okay? And I wasI was really kind of bringing it all to conclusion. You know, it's ait's a story of ruination. You had to go to the big card catalogues and pick out something. I wasn'tI didn't have anything approximating a cultural youth. [They laugh.] And then I realized, you know, I'd read the name Worcester Art Museum, like, here and there, and I've always logged it in the back of my mind like, Oh, this must be some old collection from New England that, you know, has a few good things. There were parts of the business I wanted to buy and parts of the business that I didn't want to buy. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I still spent a lot of my timeregional auction houses, and I had expanded by then to go to the library and look at all the French auction houses. I mean, but I didn't, you know, I wasn't trying to make myself a gadfly in the market, or even a gadfly in the curatorial world. I spoke to the auctioneers quite a bit. JUDITH RICHARDS: for the field. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And, you know, I mean every year, the Alboni[Alessandro] Allorithe Allori that was soldthis is a good one. So, those days are long over, and to imagine what a business becomes when you were a thousand paintings a year to 12you know, and that'sand that each one of those 12 takes as much work as 17 to 20 of the pictures you sold in 1900. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, it's the Art of Europe. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. Oh, no. And so he gave me this Hefty bag and he told me to sort it. No, no, no, I will. So, you know, we can talk endlessly about art, and, you know, he invites me to his house, and we look at art. CLIFFORD SCHORER: '80; I think I was class of '87 or '88. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. Winslow Homer was an American painter whose works in the domain of realism, especially those on the sea, are considered some of the most influential paintings of the late 19th century. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I think they were so proud that they recently found it in the ground that they had that at hand so they could tell the story. JUDITH RICHARDS: Early 20th-century British? CLIFFORD SCHORER: I'm not that intelligent. I mean, I would say, JUDITH RICHARDS: You were stillyou were living in the house that you bought. It was called the Professors ProgramUniversity Professors Program. Metal. And, obviously, that is the sort of the genesis of the great collections that just got given to Boston. But what I picked up, obviously, had an impact. JUDITH RICHARDS: Restorations that are hidden? That [01:00:00]. And then I would say when I was aroundand this tied well into the art world. As embedded artist with the Union army, Winslow Homer captured life at the front of the Civil War. He said, "Yes, I'm Jim." [00:04:00], JUDITH RICHARDS: Which, if there's one person. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. So it is veryyes, you know, you have to put the, you know, the benchmarks of pricing in their histories, but now that I'm in the trade, which is a very different perspective, I have to take those shackles off a bit because I think like an old man, like every old man. And Colnaghi is still extremely ambitious; I think they still have 40 employees, and, you know, their ambition may or may not be equaled by a marketplace that can sustain their ambition, but, you know, time will tell on that. I mean, then it wasthen it was, CLIFFORD SCHORER: I would say by 1990I bought locally until '94, '95. I think I was a substitute hitter that day, sobecause I think they had somebody else lined up who couldn't make it. CLIFFORD SCHORER: before that. It hadeffectively, it had been on the market for 25 or 30 years. He lived a fascinating life; working as a commercial illustrator, an artist-correspondent for the Civil War, being published on commemorative stamps and achieving financial success as a fine artist. I'm not sure exactly the year, but I remember there were a few what I would consider to be ambitious acquisitions that I made that I was very, very pleased with, where there wasn't as much competition as I anticipated. And I don't have that desire to have that at home, so, you know, I've been able to sort of, I guess, suppress my immune system enough that the lymphocytes are not attacking every object so I take them home [laughs], if you know what I mean. So, you know, I did that kind of loop aesthetically, where I went from the filigree to the shadow. You know. And I became first in my class so I could not go back. So it would have been a matter of, "If you're not available to me, that's fine; I won't do the project." She's always willing to take a phone call from an annoying person like me. JUDITH RICHARDS: Okay, rabbit-skin glue. Winslow Homer. So I would go up to Montreal, live there for a little while, and come back. JUDITH RICHARDS: Probably there's a few things that happened before that, we haven't touched on. JUDITH RICHARDS: And most of the people bidding at auction in those days were the wholesalers. But, I mean, I can tell, you know, when yet another picture arises from a certain quarter, what we're dealing with. Yeah, they close rooms. So it. JUDITH RICHARDS: And the insurance? We're not going to determine [laughs]you know, we're not going to insert that Magnasco into the artist's oeuvre or get it out there for the public and change the perception of that artist. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is it an intended gift or. You know, milk cartons filled with books. It was very early. [00:45:59]. I enjoy exhibitions at the Frick and at the Met. And I'm very excited, because Procaccini will finally get a major, monographic book. CLIFFORD SCHORER: History. This would've beenI was 17 when I left. Winslow Homer (1836-1910) was an American painter who is widely considered one of the greatest American painters of the 19th century. I hadyeah. But, but then, you know, many, many years later, basically, it was all dissipated. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, the experiences, the moments, and all of that. I mean, it wasI remember the restoration process took four or five months. Because I think that's where you can reallyyou know, that's where you can hurt it, I think, is if you need to run it as a shop, because it really is a five- or six-year business cycle. There were definitelyit would definitelyI mean, there are still major goals that are unachieved thatyou know, there's a whole list, yes, and there are some with highlighting, some without, some that are possible, some that are not. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Leysen. And now I think there's a very good process in place. And his son, Caleb, is also deceased. JUDITH RICHARDS: They're based in London? What we can do, though, is we can use the tools of taste-making to try toyou know, again, our market is so small that an expansion of one collector is a significant expansion. JUDITH RICHARDS: Was that based on a body of work that the galley owns? Yeah. And that was March of 1983. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I enjoyI don't know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Johnny Van Haeften. And because he has such an enormous collectionhe has one of the great Dutch drawings collections in America, and Dutch metals and bronzes andyou know, we havehe's a cabinet collector, so we can get down and focus on little objects, and we can go one by one by one by one. It was ridiculous. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I got the feeling that that's where they had settled, was, you know, doing British 20th-century exhibitions, which was timing the market pretty well, but the costs and the sales prices of the actual paintings and objects were too low to sustain the model. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. [Laughs.]. [00:32:05]. Date. You're going into someone else's space to show an artwork. CLIFFORD SCHORER: too much of a philistine, but obviously economics play a role in my thinking when Ilet me rephrase it, so that I seem less a charlatan. All the regional houses, not the big city houses. CLIFFORD SCHORER: these are bigger projects. So, yes, to me, that was the detour, but it waswhich was pure craft, but I esteem the craft as much as the conception, and I know that I'll never have the craft. JUDITH RICHARDS: During these years, were you reading in that field then? I had developed my eye to the extent that I also realized that all the export wares were crude Kraak wares that they were just, you know, flipping onto the boats to get rid of it. Fortunately, Anthony Crichton-Stuart, who was running Noortman at the timeI went to see him, and I said, you know, "I won't do this unless I know that, you know, you will be available to me.". [Laughs.]. But I was happy to help. I mean, I'm still waiting for the great Quentin Matsys show. I liked dark colors. They will charge the buyer 20 to 25 percent." CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. I said, "I'll leave the car and I'll walk." JUDITH RICHARDS: Is there an exhibition that you would love to see created that relates to what you've been collecting and discovering and what you want to learn about? And the Best family, the family that owned Best Products. [00:42:06]. I mean, I didn't specifically go to try to find the dealer who made a market in Chinese in Paris. The transcript and recording are open for research. They also had a book that went with the Procaccini called Procaccini in America, which was a very well-researched book by Brigstocke, and I was very impressed. And there's no further I can go. JUDITH RICHARDS: That's, like, a half a million? And the Chinese think less about that as deceit than we do. You know, everything. Winslow Homer. How do you deal with that? Schorer also describes his discovery of the Worcester Art Museum and his subsequent work there on the Museum's board and as president; his interest in paleontology and his current house by Walter Gropius in Provincetown, MA; his involvement with the purchase and support of Agnew's Gallery based in London, UK, and his work with its director, Anthony Crichton-Stuart; his thoughts on marketing at art shows and adapting Agnew's to the changing market for the collecting of Old Masters; the differences between galleries and auction houses in the art market today; and his expectations for his collection in the future. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It was 20 hours a week at the beginning. And you eventually, as a young person, you come up against the realization that, you know, there's a handful of things that are up in the stratosphere here that we're never going to touch. Solely responsible. Matter of fact, from day one I should have just bought a Dunkin' Donuts. And how the Chinese merchants were trying to sell you back what you wanted to see. Her book is in Italian. So for the average buyer, philosophically thinking about that, they think, Okay, well, I'm going to sell this, and I'm not going to pay a commission. I love that, CLIFFORD SCHORER: They're building brand-new buildings, yeah. JUDITH RICHARDS: What was the interest in traveling through those countries? And you know, so we spent, I don't know, 350 hours talking, I mean. It's [Nancy Ward] Neilson, Ms. Neilson. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Not long. So, you know, one major painting today selling for $25 million, even though the gallery may only make a commission on it, is still more than the gallery sold in adjusted dollars in 1900. These 27 are unaffordable. And they still associate us with the great works of art, with the quality of the art, because Agnew's obviouslyunsurpassed in theI mean, 15 percent of the National Gallery comes from Agnew's. So if Anthony decides he wants to do a show, they get together; they decide what the show will be, and then Anna takes charge of all the sort of managerial tasks involved with that. It was justit was this hoarding, boxing, newspapering, closing the box, knowing what's in the box, and moving it over, and getting another box. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And the flea markets then were. And they didn't have a real understanding. JUDITH RICHARDS: Outside of the United States? And, you know, I basically said, you know, "Is there anything you'd like from me?" And when Freeport got a little too rough for them, because they were living in a part of town that had gone down quite a bit since they bought in the 1940s. I was in the running, and I lost it marginally. JUDITH RICHARDS: [Laughs.] JUDITH RICHARDS: Well, I want to talk about the gallery tomorrow. [Laughs.] JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. How can they possibly have a Piero di Cosimo in Worcester? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Self-taught in COBOL and a few other computer languages. And she got tired [00:20:02]. And Anna especially, too, on the aesthetic, of creating a new aesthetic that people do not any longer associate with the old aesthetic. And that onethat one wasyou know, it was estimated at, I don't know, $2,000 and it made 47,000, and I'm in the checkout line, and someone I know is there who bid against me. I was in Prague. JUDITH RICHARDS: You don't have the 110-foot specimen? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, the dealers that I would say, you know, rise to the level ofeven though they're inadvertent, because they don't know that they areI would say mentors, Johnny Van Haeften and Otto Naumann for sure. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And there was a lecture going on in front of my painting, with a big group of people, and somebody talking about the Counter-Reformation. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And these folks were traders. You're doing various business deals and developing that. And I won't mention the name, but it's a national company. CLIFFORD SCHORER: the Lewis family. So I went down to Virginia, and I got a programming job at Best Products, which was a retailer. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Sobecause I downsized my companies. About. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: That started 14 years ago, or 10, 12 years ago. I mean, little things, but just lots of articles, publications, and now, you know, again, contributing to the San Francisco exhibition's works. It's fascinating to me to see the roots of sea travel that were established by that point to move these goods around at incredibly low cost. I mean, I found a conflict the other night at the collections committee advisory meeting at Worcester. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: you know, longer term; I'm excited when an institution finds that something I provide to them fills a lacuna that they would then feelthat they would really miss if I took it away. I said, "I stand corrected." 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